Eyes On Impact: A CIO’s Playbook for Success | AVI Systems

00:06 
Brad Sousa 
So, as a tech leader, have you ever been misunderstood? I have to believe you have. I think I know the answer to that. For me, it's that awkward moment where I I thought what I said was absolutely brilliant, but the rest of the executive team is staring at me in stunned silence. Maybe it's just me, but I think that the language that we use as tech leaders and the language that the rest of the business uses are not in the same universe, let alone the same lexicon. There's a very real communications gap. What if I told you that the reason for that is because tech just doesn't matter? Crazy, right? Well, today on Eyes on Impact, we have Rachel Locket, the CIO of the Pohlad Companies, the parent company of such iconic brands as the Minnesota Twins. And of all of our favorite friends, Rachel is right at the top of that list.  

00:55 
Brad Sousa 
Rachel recently released her book Technology Doesn't Matter. Crazy, right? Well, before we get into our conversation, I want to say thank you to some of our other friends at Logitech for sponsoring Eyes on Impact and helping us share the human impact story with tech leaders all over the world. Today, we're going to unpack human impact through the eyes of tech and business and how the tech that we deliver is a business accelerator if we take the time to see our tech through the eyes of our business leaders. So let's invite Rachel in. Eyes on impact. Let's get after it. Hey, everybody. Brad Sousa here, CTO at Avi Systems. And welcome to Eyes on Impact, where we talk about human impact, that crazy, awesome place where technology and people come together. We're going to unpack that again today. But as a special surprise and treat for all of us, I have my good friend Rachel Lockett, who is CIO of the Pohlad companies.  

01:57 
Brad Sousa 
She's going to be joining us on this conversation around tech, CIO leadership, and how tech matters to the people who consume it. Rachel, great to have you with us. It's always fun to have a conversation with you. Thanks for joining us.  

02:11 
Rachel Lockett 
Yeah, good to see you again, Brad. Thanks for having me.  

02:14 
Brad Sousa 
You bet. How about we get started by just helping people connect to you, and let's start maybe something easy. Let's talk about your role as CIO at the Polar Companies.  

02:25 
Rachel Lockett 
Sure. Well, I have been here at the Pohlad Companies for I've been in my role, actually, for this will be my 10th year, which is kind of an epically long time for a CIO. The average tenure, like four years, I think. But that's because I love what I do. It's an amazing organization. I love the people I work with, respect the people I work for. It's great. I get the opportunity because we're this diverse group of operating companies held by a privately owned holding company. I get the opportunity to coach and mentor technology leaders across our organization in all kinds of different industries and fields. So, we have commercial real estate, custom engineering and robotics manufacturing. We have automotive dealerships. We have a movie studio, movie production studio. Just so many diverse and interesting companies. And I get to do what I love to do, which is mentor and coach and help develop the technology leadership across all those companies and set the technology strategy for the businesses.  

03:31 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, that's super cool. One of the things I love about your role is that you're a CIO. My words, not yours. You're a CIO over other CIOs or with other CIOs or technology leaders across a lot of different brands that range from Ferrari dealerships to the Minnesota Twins.  

03:52 
Rachel Lockett 
Yeah, right. Exactly. I forgot the Major League Baseball. Yeah, it's so much fun. It's something different every day.  

03:58 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, I love that. I know, because we're friends. I know your journey, or at least part of your journey. Talk to us about the journey you've gone on to get to where you are today.  

04:12 
Rachel Lockett 
Okay, sure. Yeah. Well, I started out my career as a programmer and spent a few years doing that. Moved pretty quickly into IT leadership and management in another family owned, not quite as diverse, but still somewhat diverse group of operating companies. Worked my way up. IT supervisor, IT manager, IT director got involved in a broad range of technologies, so tech support and infrastructure and networking, but also application development, database management, all of that. And then realized I wanted to be even more well rounded. So I had the opportunity to get involved in due diligence for acquisitions. And that led to going out to one of the new acquisitions and overseeing human resources and accounting for about 100-person company. So that was crazy. Yeah. Also got really involved and interested in quality assurance and process improvement. Led one of our businesses through ISO 9000 certification.  

05:13 
Rachel Lockett 
So that was a really great thing to sort of underpin the technology background with the formal methodologies of process improvement. But yeah, just have had this great opportunity to gain experience with other areas of the business and then leading to eventually becoming a CIO. And it was kind of a fun and instructive story of how I ended up in this role. But it's been a great ride. It's been a lot of fun.  

05:44 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, it's interesting. So I got to know you by working with you long before we had a friendship. And it was interesting to watch how you build a community of IT leaders and then enable them to do what they're so amazing at. I would imagine that those who might be thinking about their role as a CIO or maybe aspiring to a role like that would ask the question, how do you provide guidance and oversight and yet provide the autonomy that people need? How do you balance that together?  

06:25 
Rachel Lockett 
Even that question reminds me of when I first started in this role. We had some of the companies, there was like pairs of companies where they were sharing network and IT services and everything was together. And yet at the same time we had the leadership very frustrated because everything to them felt so disjointed they couldn't look at any one global address list and see all of their employees. And so when I first came in, we had these companies that were paired together. They were sharing a network, which meant that we owned banks at the time and the parent company was on the same network as the banks, which meant their Wi-Fi had to turn off at 06:00 p.m., things like that. So, first thing I did was help separate all of these companies. That was the first pillar of the strategy was to get everybody independent and autonomous so they could choose their own destiny, so they could have control over their network, right?  

07:17 
Rachel Lockett 
So get them all separate. But then to appease the ownership and the leadership, we had to put in place the federation and all of the things so that from the parent company perspective or from the leadership perspective, it looked like it was all together. I mean, I literally had people on my first day telling me the first thing you need to do is get all of our companies on the same network. And I'm in the back of my mind going, well, that's not going to happen. We're not going to put banks on the same network as auto dealerships, right? We have to make them think that they're all together and cohesive. So I referred to it as having their cake and eating it too to separate everything from a security and autonomy perspective, but yet put in place all of the federation and collaboration to make it appear that were all this one big happy family.  
 
08:05 
Rachel Lockett 
And I think about that as it pertains to the people too. So I have all of these different businesses and they each have IT leadership and they're all independent, strong willed, they have great experience and background and strong opinions. But I need to bring them together and help them to see each other as a team, not as a bunch of competing technology leaders who are competing for resources, competing for budget dollars, competing for attention and all of these things. But rather they are each other's team and they need to share and collaborate even if they're in vastly different businesses and industries. So, so much of what we do is a collaborative process. I try not to dictate anything corporate coming down and telling you this is what you're going to do. It's always because we know this is the right thing to do, how can we do it in the way that works for everyone and that brings value and benefit to each of you and each of your companies.  

08:59 
Rachel Lockett 
And we always end up figuring out the right way to move forward.  

09:02 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah. So, I'm going to go down a path that I didn't expect us to go down. So with my team, one of the things that I talk about a lot is the difference between unity and uniformity. And sometimes what we say we want is uniformity. We focus on people looking the same, doing the same thing the same way, thinking that's going to solve the problem. But really what's needed is unity. It's people having a common destination and finding new ways to all arrive there together. It's kind of our way. I know that's the way you think. Talk about that a little bit.  

09:39 
Rachel Lockett 
You know, what you're making me think of now is I have a bunch of teenagers at home right now. It's funny how many parallels you find between parenting ownership, right. But I don't have to manage or to parent them each identically. I just have to treat them fairly. And it's the same kind of concept. We're not going to have the same expectations of a commercial real estate mortgage banking company as we are of a movie production studio. They're just so good, so vastly different. But yet we have to have some standards where it's not that we're telling them all you have to use the same backup software, we're telling them all you have to conduct a business impact analysis to determine what your needs are around backup and disaster recovery. And then you have to put in place the systems to meet your business needs.  
 
10:27 
Rachel Lockett 
And that has to be done consistently across the board. And by the way, let's all get together and talk about how we're each doing it, because we can learn from each other. And maybe in some places we can share resources or at least share knowledge and gain that we work together on doing the due diligence to the software selection process. Right. But then we both pick something different because we have different needs. As long as all of our companies are meeting their business needs, that's what I'm expecting and asking of them.  

10:59 
Brad Sousa 
So, a little bit of disclosure for our listeners today. You and I are friends. You've spoken at our company, I've spoken at your company. This is not the first time we've shared a mic or a stage. We do this from time to time. You're an award-winning CIO. You've been named CIO of the Year. You lead the technology strategies around a very diverse, dynamic organization. It's been fun to watch. You published a book recently. I want to talk about that. Right. “The Technology Doesn't Matter.” Which is an interesting notion from a CIO. So talk about the premise behind the book.  

11:45 
Rachel Lockett 
Sure.  

11:46 
Brad Sousa 
First of all, start with what's the main message that you want people to get and what motivated you to write it in the first place?  
 
11:55 
Rachel Lockett 
Well, obviously, I was trying to be a little provocative with the title “The Technology Doesn't Matter,” coming from a CIO, kind of like the world is flat. Right? But the subtitle is: Prioritizing the People in IT Business Alignment. So the point there is that let's take the often-repeated statistic that three quarters, and some would even say 80% of technology projects fail to achieve their goals. So they either come in, they're not on time, they're not on budget, or they just don't meet the requirements, the quality requirements and expectations. Well, why is that? I've looked into it, I've done the research, and the reasons are not because it's the wrong technology. We spend millions of dollars every year doing assessments and software selection processes to make sure that we choose the best software, even though we all know for any given solution there's probably five, six, seven services, software or solutions that could meet the need and that could get the job done.  
 
12:57 
Rachel Lockett 
But we spend all kinds of time making sure we pick the perfect one for our business, for our needs. So when that project fails to deliver on its expectations, it's not because we chose the wrong product, it's not because we chose the wrong service software that is in that top right corner of the Gartner magic quadrant that is the leader. It's the best right. Those software solutions are part of those failed implementations every day. And the reasons are the people and the process issues. It's because we didn't have effective communication. It's because we're not properly resourcing. It's because we didn't have management buy in all the way from the top down. It's because we didn't schedule properly. It's because we didn't train. It's because we didn't understand from a change management perspective where our users were and where we needed to get them to be.  
 
13:47 
Rachel Lockett 
It's all of those people and process issues. And so after 25 years of watching this happen and learning what works, what doesn't work, learning from successes and failures, I decided to put some of my advice and my experience into a book, motivation. I love to write, I love the power of words, and I especially love the power of storytelling as a leadership tool. And so I put a lot of my own stories and thoughts down. I also interviewed and talked to a lot of my CIO peers and heard their stories and shared those. And I structured IT as a set of recommendations to both business leaders and technology leaders of how they can work together to focus on the people and achieve that IT business alignment that we're all looking for.  
 
14:41 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, so this is so interesting to me. I was talking with a customer recently and they wanted us to engage with them on a technology project and they very rapidly wanted to start solutioning and I kept pulling them back. And finally I just said, let me just be transparent with you. I've delivered, sadly, hundreds, maybe several hundreds of projects that 100% met the spec but were never used because we forgot to integrate people into the design process and people's biases and expectations of what that tech is supposed to do. And this is part of what you have been talking about with so many technology leaders. Do you feel like your message is being heard and people are responding to it?  
 
15:32 
Rachel Lockett 
Yeah, I love the feedback. People are so excited and energized by this. And it's not revolutionary, groundbreaking new concepts. I mean, even when I started writing the book, I told myself, I'm not going to be bringing something new to the world that no one's ever heard before. This is the tried and true knowledge that most CIOs have figured out. I'm simply telling it with my stories and the stories of my friends. And Brad's quoted in the book. He's one of my contributors. But I'm telling it in hopefully a new and a fresh way that'll resonate with different people. But then, as you know, Brad, we've talked about this also. There are a couple of elements in there, especially in chapter five, where I do bring up some points that aren't talked about really often that are kind of shedding light on some areas that don't get discussed commonly, and people really have responded to that as well.  
 
16:26 
Rachel Lockett 
I've had people just come up and share their own personal experience with this, and it's been really moving and motivating. It gets me excited for writing the next book.  
 
16:36 
Brad Sousa 
So let's unpack a couple of these. So one of these topics, and we'll talk about some of the topics that you talk about in chapter five. But one of these topics is really around the communications gap. And one of the things you talk about is you talk about how business leaders have a language and technology leaders have a language, and those languages are not the same. And the result of that is this gap in how you communicate. So I've set it up. I want your words. Tell me about what you're trying to communicate.  

17:12 
Rachel Lockett 
Yeah, you're talking about kind of the communication gap between business leaders and technology leaders. And it goes further than that. I think it also relates to the high turnover rate that we have in technology and this struggle that CIOs and other technology leaders often have. Feeling like a true member of the executive leadership team and really feeling fully accepted and integrated into the leadership of the business. That's a real struggle, a real challenge. We talk about the struggle to get that proverbial seat at the table or to be included in the true strategic leadership of the business. And we've made strides. So the statistics around just even very visible things like is there a CIO instead of just an IT manager or an IT director to have the CIO role stated? And then there's been advances in the number of CIOs who actually report to their CEO instead of reporting to a CFO or some other member of the executive team.  
 
18:14 
Rachel Lockett 
So being down a level from the CEO. So we're making progress there as well. But what I hear and understand from my peers and from talking with people is oftentimes, even if we get the title and we get the right position on the chart, whether you have that or not, the struggle is still to be included truly and fully in the strategic leadership of the business. So you get the title, you get in the right spot in the org chart. You get invited to the monthly status update meeting, the executive leadership team meeting, and you share your update and you hear everyone else's. But is the CIO really in the meetings where the true business of running the business is happening? Are we really involved from the beginning in the merger and acquisition strategy or in the budget and strategic planning process or the real decision making of running the business?  
 
19:03 
Rachel Lockett 
And oftentimes that's not the case. Oftentimes it's still that sort of cursory level, and then we still find out about things too late, and we're expected to be more reactive than proactive. And so that's really what I'm trying to coach business leaders on, is the importance of actually letting your technology leader be a business leader first with a technology background and letting them be truly part of that executive leadership team. And there's a lot of things that are standing in the way of that happening.  
 
19:33 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, it's so interesting to me because I think traditionally CIOs have elevated to that C-suite position because they were the best at some sort of technical skill, not because they were adept at leading people or they had a strong sense of how tech could revolutionize the business. They view tech as more as a utility rather than something that creates a competitive advantage. What are some things that you see CIOs do, or maybe not just CIOs business tech leaders in general do that kind of hold them back from that seat at the table?  

20:17 
Rachel Lockett 
Well, it's what you just described. If the CIO feels that their value and their benefit is purely their technical knowledge, that's holding them back by itself. And so, like I said, the book is written to the dual audience. Half of it is advice to business leaders and half to technology leaders. And the main thing I'm telling technology leaders is if you're aspiring to that CIO role, or even if you're there, you need to understand that your technology skill is not the greatest value that you provide to the business anymore. And so your personal and professional development needs to shift to leadership development, to networking and to business skills. Understanding your own business, understanding business in general, understanding the financial levers and the things that drive financial success for your business, understanding HR and process improvement and those kind of things, so that you can be that well rounded business leader who happens to have the technology background and knows how to lead and mentor and guide the technology function within your business, toward those business objectives and toward that business strategy.  
 
21:25 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, that's so critically important, which is creating a language around business, the ability to envision how the technology you're leading or managing has a direct impact on the competitiveness of your company or customer happiness or whatever the goals are, acquisitions, whatever the goals are for your organization. How do you coach people, Rachel, to learn a business language, an IT leader to learn a business language? Is there a way that you help them kind of get started?  

22:03 
Rachel Lockett 
Well, it depends on where they are, you know, in the process. And so, for some, maybe it is an MBA or whatever that might be. But for most, it's getting more involved with their own business leaders. Because why bother going outside and learning from these outside resources or going and investing all the time and money to get an MBA when you can learn so much by sitting down with your own CFO or Chief Marketing Officer or whoever in your business has that good understanding of the business strategy and what you're trying to accomplish and learn from them and make it a two way thing. Maybe they can learn from you as well. More about technology and the competitive advantage that technology can bring. But leverage those resources right there, and you're killing two birds with one stone because you're also strengthening and building relationships, and that's so important to achieving that alignment.  
 
22:58 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, it starts with empathy and understanding what matters to the rest of the executive team that's leading the company someplace and then imagining how what I do accelerates what they're doing. What's your advice to business leaders about communicating with technology leaders?  
 
23:18 
Rachel Lockett 
You mentioned starting with empathy and understanding, and I think patience as well. This kind of gets into chapter five. I came across research when I was writing the book that shows that there is an actual clear link between an interest in technology as a career and autistic tendencies. There's actually a direct correlation. So not saying that every IT person is autistic. That's not at all. Please don't put that … don't let that misunderstanding be out there. But what it is saying is that in any given IT department you're going to see a higher prevalence of those traits, those tendencies, those characteristics, those being things like wanting to focus in great detail on technical issues. Maybe struggling with picking up on social cues and interpersonal relationships and just kind of what the business leaders want to interpret as maybe being awkward or shy or that great attention to detail that can make conversations a nerd.  
 
24:27 
Rachel Lockett 
Okay, there you go.  
 
24:29 
Brad Sousa 
Right.  
 
24:29 
Rachel Lockett 
Your words. But, yeah, it makes it difficult for that to have that kind of relationship that neurotypical business leaders might have with their peers.  
 
24:41 
Brad Sousa 
It's so good.  
 
24:42 
Rachel Lockett 
And so that creates some of that gap that we're talking about. So, what I'm trying to do with that portion of the book is to make business leaders aware that it isn't just that we're geeky and nerdy. There's actual neurological differences in how a lot of technology people think and that makes them amazing at what they do. It's a superpower. That's the kind of person you want...it’s security for your business, right? But it's a different kind of patience and empathy and understanding. And so, for business leaders to have just an increased awareness, I think is the first step. And then learning how they can better support and accommodate that different way of thinking, that neurodivergent thought process, so that they can draw out the most effectiveness and productivity and value from those team members. That's where I've spent a lot of time and a lot of emphasis of the book in advising and guiding business leaders to help meet us halfway in achieving that IT business alignment.  
 
25:49 
Brad Sousa 
That's so good. And I love the fact that you're having that conversation because I am a self-labeled nerd. I think I am a nerd, maybe more of a geek, I don't know. And I wear whatever that branding is actually with pride. I love what I do. I'm so passionate about what I do. Right? And yet there's an element of being misunderstood if you're not aware that not everybody sees the world through the same lens that I see the world in. And I think that also has to do with impacting, maybe innovation and creativity even within my team, because I'm constantly looking for people who have a different set of experiences that I've had. Maybe they didn't grow up in the same community that I grew up in and their backgrounds are different than mine for whatever reason. Maybe it's gender, maybe it's race, maybe it's ethnicity, maybe it's geographic or wherever it is.  
 
26:52 
Brad Sousa 
But those differences bring with them an ability to innovate that I can't get to otherwise.  
 
26:58 
Rachel Lockett 
I was talking to someone in your industry a couple of days ago and were kind of joking around about your industry is full of a lot of middle-aged white guys who used to be in a rock band? I mean, stereotypes come from when they start somewhere, right? Unfortunately, the stereotype is often true that we have a lot of that neurodivergent, that different way of thinking that can be not easy for more neurotypical business people to relate to. And so, we have to be aware and then we have to try and compensate for it, but we also have to understand that stereotype or that higher rate of those autistic tendencies. It can sometimes create an environment that isn't seen as being super inclusive. And I think that is a big reason why we have the gender gap that we have in technology as well. Especially if you understand that, like autism spectrum disorder, for example, is diagnosed five times more often in boys than it is in girls.  
 
28:03 
Rachel Lockett 
Kind of really helps to understand why we have this gender gap and then why we also have so much fallout women leaving the IT field.  
 
28:11 
Brad Sousa 
That's right.  
 
28:12 
Rachel Lockett 
Because if we've got a bunch of geeky guys that aren't necessarily good at the interpersonal communication and picking up on social cues, it's creating coding clubs and college classes and IT departments that aren't a warm, fuzzy, inclusive environment. So, a lot of my female peers are saying, well, I'm going to go hang out with the psychology majors because they're fun and nice to me.  
 
28:36 
Brad Sousa 
Right, right.  
 
28:37 
Rachel Lockett 
It's really fascinating. I had so much fun researching it in preparation for the book and even more fun talking with people about it. Since then, it's something people get very interested in, and everyone has a personal story or a family member or something like that. So, everyone has a close personal connection to this concept.  
 
28:56 
Brad Sousa 
I mean, the diversity that we need in our industry is certain, and I'm passionate about helping foster that. The interesting thing is that your book gave a perspective and a language that I didn't have before, because the common response is that it's a bias. And the reality is there may be biases. I'm not discounting that. But there may be some physiological, sociological contributors, neurological contributors that have this predicted outcome. And if you don't recognize it for what it is, it's going to continue. Understanding it helps change it. I think it's been fantastic.  
 
29:45 
Rachel Lockett 
Well, I think the common theory is that there's speaking mainly to the gender gap, right. There's these theories that there's systemic sexism in academia and in business and that the problem is there. And what this research uncovered for me is, while admittedly there are examples of bad behavior who should know better, I'm not discounting that at all. The initial disparity that creates the gender gap all the way back to coding clubs in middle school or Lego building clubs in elementary school may be based more in those neurological differences between men and women. And we shouldn't place the blame later on down the funnel, down the path. We can still address legitimate problems and concerns that happen there, but rather when we have this better understanding of where it comes from, then we can actually try and help either solve the root cause or accept it and understand what's going on there and then better adapt and support as people move further along in the path and in the funnel.  
 
31:00 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah. So, one of the things we've talked about today is this idea of is what we do a business enabler, or is it a utility? And I love that concept. I'm going to go back and kind of pick that up for a moment. You and I were at dinner. Your husband was there with us, and you said something to me at dinner that went something like this. You know, Brad, before the pandemic, I'm not sure that the technology that you use really mattered much.  
 
31:28 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, but post Pandemic, it's like in my top five.  

31:34 
Rachel Lockett 
Yeah, I think I said before the Pandemic, AV Solutions would not have hit my top ten of my priorities. And actually, post or during and post Pandemic, it was one of my top three. It was understanding and enabling the future of work. And AV technology solutions is so integral to that initiative, and it still is today because we're still trying to figure out it's still evolving, what we put in place. I mean, it's almost embarrassing what we put in place, what's it been now, a year and a half ago, what we put in place a year and a half ago, it's actually not what we need today. And we had this grand, wonderful solution and this was perfect, and this is exactly what we need. And then business needs continue to evolve and change, and this hybrid work world keeps shifting and we're realizing that it's not what we need.  
 
32:26 
Rachel Lockett 
And so I've got your guys back in here all the time, helping me to go back to the drawing board and re-envision and understand what the needs are now and adapt so much more quickly. Because the other thing the Pandemic did is everyone realized, well, our IT department was able to shift everyone to remote work in less than a week. So, everything is going to happen that fast from now on, right? Able to adapt to changing needs inside of a week for everything. And the world is also changing right now that budgets are not as unlimited as they were a couple of years ago for some industries.  
 
33:01 
Brad Sousa 
It's crazy. So, you had the courage, you built and opened a headquarters during the Pandemic. And to your point, there was a series of expectations of what the workforce was going to look like. So, let's talk about a few of those. I'd love to learn what you're seeing and then I'll share with you some of the things I'm seeing and get your reaction to it. So, one of the things I want to talk about is it seems like every week there's multiple articles in the Wall Street Journal or wherever around somebody saying, you're going to go back to work or you're fired. Back to the office or you're fired, or we're going to leave it up to you, or something in between. Where do you think this lands? First of all, let's talk about hybrid workforce. Based upon what you're seeing, maybe talking with your peers, what percentage of the workforce is out of the office on any given week?  
 
34:04 
Rachel Lockett 
You know, we have this really interesting environment. It's like a test bed for all of the scenarios. So, we're talking about the diversity of our organization, everything from the commercial real estate investment, sales and mortgage brokerage, to the movie theater or I'm sorry, movie production studio, to the automotive dealerships, to the Major League Baseball team, custom manufacturing and custom engineering and robotics manufacturing, all these different diverse businesses. Every single one of them has a different model. So, the auto dealerships, I mean, you can't service vehicles remotely, right? They've been back in the office since what, three weeks in or whatever, when were allowed to bring essential workers back because they were deemed essential workers. So they've been in the office. Right? Then we have other businesses that are still 100% remote and then we have like here at corporate, we're in the office three days a week and we've designated two of those.  
 
35:10 
Rachel Lockett 
One has to be Monday, one has to be Thursday. So, we can have team meetings then, which I think works great for me and my team. I think that's a great model. Other businesses are you have to be in Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and you can work from home Monday and Friday. Others are well, certain departments are in the office 100% and have to be there every day. And other departments within the same company, within the same building are 100% remote and they just switch to hotel cubes and they've got like three cubes for a team of 20, right? So, it's all these different scenarios. And I think that's the future of work. I think it's going to be completely dependent upon the business, role, the culture. I think it's going to continue to shift and I think that puts a burden on technology departments to shift.  
 
35:56 
Rachel Lockett 
Because I hear about companies that were 100% remote and now they're changing their mind and they're bringing people back in the office. And I've heard of companies, not as many, but some, where they brought everybody back to the office, realized they're having a really hard time finding people and shifted back to some hybrid model. So, I think it's going to continue to shift. I think the economy and whether it's more of an employee's economy or an employer's market, I think that's going to drive some of the shift. So, I think IT departments are going to have to continually respond to that in a lot of ways in terms of the technology we're deploying, but especially in your field in AV, that's why the hybrid meetings and the meeting equity has become so critical and that's what we're struggling with. The solution we defined coming back from the Pandemic doesn't deliver the meeting equity that we really needed, we didn't need to have the tools, didn't even exist then.  
 
36:54 
Rachel Lockett 
New things are coming out and we're having to constantly reevaluate and redesign to achieve better and better and better meeting equity for these hybrid meetings and never knowing from day to day who's going to be in the office and who's going to be on the other end of a line.  
 
37:10 
Brad Sousa 
So I want to share with you something that I hear and on a regular basis. It's now almost every day that this conversation comes up. I'd love to get your thoughts on it. So, the premise is that generally speaking, these customers -- and I think you're right, it's different for each organization and roles within those organizations. But if I kind of generalize, most of our customers are saying that they expect somewhere between 30 and 40% of the workforce to be out of the office on any given day. And that there's a direct … that has a negative impact on the ability to build consensus around big ideas and organizational transformation. It has a negative impact on building a sense of workplace community. And that has all sorts of results in terms of retaining workforce and building skills and mentoring and all of that kind of stuff. And that there's just certain things that you have to do together with people that you just can't do over a video call.  
 
38:27 
Brad Sousa 
Right? And so, the conversation I'm hearing is we don't think that mandating is going to be a successful path long term. We don't think just leaving it up to the worker is going to be a successful path long term. We think we have to create a workplace that's worth the commute.  
 
38:50 
Rachel Lockett 
Yes.  
 
38:51 
Brad Sousa 
So give me a response to that conversation.  
 
38:55 
Rachel Lockett 
For our businesses that are hybrid, that is the key giving people a reason to come in. And I think that's why we decided to have two days a week where we would do team meetings. And our office manager seems to have figured out that you have to give people a reason to come in and food is the best one.  
 
39:15 
Brad Sousa 
That's certainly true.  
 
39:16 
Rachel Lockett 
Lots of food days, lots of treats in the break room on Thursdays. But, you know, the space itself, we built this beautiful new building and so the space itself creates that for some people. Every person is different. There are people who want to be here every day. Maybe they've got little kids at home that are a big reaction or something else. It doesn't have to be little kids. Maybe it's just a bad set up. Right? So, they want to be here and others that would rather be home all day every day. And so, giving them that reason to come in, whether it's team events, whether it's food, whether it's a great office environment, whether it's the vibrancy of hopefully the returning vibrancy of your downtown area or wherever your location is, those are the things that will draw some people in. And then there are some people that there's just nothing that's going to sandblast them out of their home office because it is the most comfortable place.  
 
40:09 
Rachel Lockett 
And again, speaking to the neurodivergence, there are groups of people for whom team building events are a source of anxiety and not a draw. It's something they have to gear themselves up to be able to face because it's a job expectation and it's hard for them. So, we have to acknowledge and understand that. And that's why I think that it's good that businesses are going to be all over the place and doing whatever they think is right for their culture, and then they're going to attract the people for whom that culture is a fit. And there's going to be more of that shifting and moving around to find the right cultural fit even than what we had seen in the past, because this is such a visible and critical element of that culture and of an individual's workplace satisfaction. So, I think it's absolutely fine that there's going to be so much difference and diversity of work, flexibility and schedules.  
 
41:05 
Rachel Lockett 
And I think it's great that there are going to be companies that are going to be 100% on site and there are companies that are going to be 100% remote, and there are ones that are going to be in the middle. I know which one I'd prefer. I always want to work for one that's got a hybrid model, I don’t want one extreme or the other, either way. But there are people who would, and there'll be a place for them because we're going to have this great range and spectrum and we have to be able...  
 
41:29 
Brad Sousa 
And one of the things that I find it was a curiosity at the beginning, but now it's become common for me is that the younger demographic of the workforce, generally speaking, would want to work in the office because that's where workplace community is. And that's where they get the mentoring and the coaching that they want to have, the networking that they need to actually level up their career path. But when they go to the office and those people aren't there and that's kind of the social norm in the workplace, they start looking for someplace else to work.  
 
42:14 
Rachel Lockett 
There's nothing more frustrating than getting dressed, driving into the office, and spending your whole day sitting in your office on Zoom calls with people that are all remote. That is very frustrating. But at the same time, I do want to point out, and I said this just a minute ago...yeah, I get that the surveys show that the younger generation wants to come in the office and interact with people and get that coaching and mentoring. But I think that is largely the neurotypical majority because I know plenty of young people who are just two years into their career, right, who started during the Pandemic, that the Pandemic was an absolute godsend for them because that interaction that getting together in person and those social opportunities are not fun for them. They're terrifying. They're panic attack inducing, and they're still an important part of the workforce.  

43:09 
Rachel Lockett 
And we need to acknowledge that and accommodate that support that even if it's not the majority.  
 
43:14 
Brad Sousa 
That's super good. Well, we've done it. We've created a podcast here. Before I land the plane, I want to give you a chance. Is there one big thing that you want people who have spent their time with us today to take away? What would that one big thing be for you?  
 
43:32 
Rachel Lockett 
Well, I mean, go buy the book and explore more of these topics and the things that we've talked about. Nobody gets rich writing a book. I'm not shilling the book. I'm saying if you want to join the conversation, reach out. Let's talk. I love hearing other people's stories and their examples validating or challenging the things that I've written about and that we've talked about. It's just been a wonderful experience hearing other people's perspectives. So, join the conversation.  

44:02 
Brad Sousa 
Thank you for doing that. Where do they find the book?  
 
44:04 
Rachel Lockett 
You can get it on Amazon. You can get it at barnesandnoble.com you can even get it on Target.com.  
 
44:09 
Brad Sousa 
Awesome. And if they want you to come, speak because you're an amazing speaker on your own. If they want you to come speak. How do they get hold of you for that?  
 
44:19 
Rachel Lockett 
LinkedIn is probably the best way. I have a little website rnltalks.com, but just reach out to me through LinkedIn.  
 
44:26 
Brad Sousa 
I love it. Rachel, it's always so much fun hanging out with you. I appreciate the conversation. Really provocative, always fun.  
 
44:36 
Rachel Lockett 
Likewise.  
 
44:36 
Brad Sousa 
Thanks for joining.  
 
44:37 
Rachel Lockett 
I appreciate it. Thank you, Brad.