00:00:03:15 - 00:00:37:24
Brad Sousa
And get back to the office. Or you're fired. No, no, no. Whenever you feel like that's. That's okay with us. What are we not re crazy? Look, there's a right way and a wrong way to address this crazy situation that we find ourselves in. And what if I told you that there's a real impact? Your organization, good or bad, depending upon how you respond to this, depending upon the right way or the wrong way that we respond to the situation that we're in.
00:00:37:27 - 00:01:00:20
Brad Sousa
You see, I'm convinced that we can create a workplace that's actually work returning to where you don't have to mandate eight people to go back. Your workforce actually wants to be there. How you design that space and the technology that you use in that space. Well, that can make all the difference between success and failure. Hey, everybody, I'm Brad Sousa
00:01:00:20 - 00:01:26:00
Brad Sousa
I'm CTO at AVI Systems. And on this episode of Eyes on Impact, I've invited one of my friends, Kay Sargent, to come and join me and unpack this topic of return to work. Or better yet, creating a workplace worth returning to. In this episode, we're going to talk about how to design an office that is commute worthy, something that creates human impact for the organizations that we serve.
00:01:26:03 - 00:01:50:08
Brad Sousa
We'll talk about how the workplace is now an ecosystem, not just a place that you go. And we're going to finally, once and for all, answer the question, are there stupid questions? We're going to do all of that. But before we do, I want to stop and say thank you to our friends at Logitech who have made this episode of Eyes on Impact available to all of us at No Charge.
00:01:50:10 - 00:02:15:10
Brad Sousa
Lodge has been a great partner of Avis for a number of years, especially in the areas of unified collaboration, e-sports and work from home, and we're grateful that they're partnering with us on this particular episode as well. So how about it? Let's unpack this topic of creating a workplace worth returning to. You ready? Okay, let's get after it.
00:02:15:13 - 00:02:21:17
Brad Sousa
Kay Sargent and I have been looking forward to doing an out with you. Thanks for giving us some of your time.
00:02:21:20 - 00:02:22:24
Kay Sargent
I am happy to.
00:02:22:27 - 00:02:49:06
Brad Sousa
Always get I always learn something new and we have a conversation. It doesn't seem to matter whether that conversation's on stage or having lunch someplace or in this case, a video call. So thanks for giving us your time. I'm excited to have you with us. Now, here's an interesting thing. I'm pretty certain that there's one or two people that are watching this podcast that may not know who the amazing case sergeant is.
00:02:49:09 - 00:02:54:14
Brad Sousa
So how about you give us a little bit of background to who you are? Let's get started with that. Yeah.
00:02:54:14 - 00:03:30:21
Kay Sargent
So first of all, lucky them, right? So but but my name is Kay Sergeant. I'm the global director of workplace at okay. I'm a practicing interior designer. I've been practicing for 38 years, which means I've, I've seen a lot I've been through a lot and I have lots of opinions about what is happening because in my role, we work with clients that have millions of square feet of space all over the world, and we lead the practice that helps them provide the best solutions for multiple projects, multiple locations.
00:03:30:21 - 00:03:46:09
Kay Sargent
And those clients don't like a lot of surprises and the world is full of surprises. So we try to do a little bit of thought leadership to help them understand not only what's happening right now, but what they're about to counter and to help them be future Ready?
00:03:46:11 - 00:04:08:24
Brad Sousa
Yeah. So I'm going to brag on Kay for just a little bit. So the I've sat on some boards with you. You sat on many boards. You still sit on many boards. I sat on the board with you for a VIX, which is our trade association and the Avy you see collaboration Tech Space. You co-founded the IFA Workplace Evolutionary Committee.
00:04:08:24 - 00:04:20:22
Brad Sousa
You've testified before Congress on workplace trends and the pandemic. You were saying you just did that again recently. The other day I went to Capitol Hill. I mean, you're kind of a big deal.
00:04:20:25 - 00:04:38:15
Kay Sargent
You know, if I'm a big deal, then we need to find bigger deals in our industry. We need to do it. We need to expand our group. But I will just say, Brad, that I been around and I do have a lot of opinions, and so I'm always happy to share that. And we're in a time where people are looking for people that have some direction.
00:04:38:15 - 00:04:41:02
Kay Sargent
So I'm always happy to share what our insights are.
00:04:41:05 - 00:05:03:23
Brad Sousa
So let's give some context to this topic of workplace or workplace design so that people can kind of understand the box that you and I are standing in together. So would think of a customer that you've been working with, a client that you've been working with. Can you can you tell us about a project that you're particularly excited about?
00:05:03:23 - 00:05:11:04
Brad Sousa
And through through talking about that project, people will kind of get an understanding of what the context of our conversation is going to be today.
00:05:11:07 - 00:05:47:07
Kay Sargent
Yeah, actually we are working with multiple clients right now who are thinking about what is the future of work and not necessarily just the workplace, but work as as a whole. How do we work? Where do we work? When do we work, you know, the workforce and then how should space be designed to do that? And I think the pandemic has opened up kind of a Pandora grows box of things, many of which we were dealing with before the pandemic, and it kind of just poured some fuel on that fire.
00:05:47:09 - 00:06:20:01
Kay Sargent
But it's also made everybody kind of rethink what is the purpose of place and what do we need to do going forward. And so there are lots of challenges, but they're amazing opportunities. And I really think we're at an inflection point right now where our industry fundamentally knows that things need to shift. Yeah, yeah, we we can either ignore that and have our industry's Kodak moment or we can embrace that and move forward.
00:06:20:03 - 00:06:33:14
Brad Sousa
Kodak moment you mean by that is Kodak was at one point, you know, 98% market share. And today we kind of chuckle because they file bankruptcy the same month that Facebook bought Instagram for $1,000,000,000. Right. So.
00:06:33:16 - 00:06:49:29
Kay Sargent
Yeah, and look, I mean, they invented digital photography, but they didn't know what to do with it because they didn't know how to monetize it until they put it on the shelf. And I think right now we understand that people want something different, but our industry hasn't figured out how to monetize it, and so we're not responding or acting to it.
00:06:50:05 - 00:07:09:21
Kay Sargent
And Brad, I'm so glad, by the way, that you clarified what Kodak moment was, because about five years ago when we started talking about this, somebody in the audience said, Do you mean an Instagram moment? Which, by the way, in our industry means it's such a cool thing that everybody's going to want to take their picture in front of it.
00:07:09:21 - 00:07:26:16
Kay Sargent
And so it's a great thing, like what's the Instagram moment on this projector in the city? Or, you know, what do you do? But no, it's not that. It's a Kodak moment where you literally are holding the future in your hand and don't know what to do with it. So you just put it on the shelf and say, Yeah, we'll get to that later.
00:07:26:19 - 00:07:58:29
Brad Sousa
And I think you're absolutely right. I tell people that this moment in our in our part of of this world, this moment in our industry is is the most powerful, most exciting moment in our history. And and there have been, you know, generations of evolution and technical development that have led up to this. If we can only imagine how to capture it and use it to really create impact for others.
00:07:59:02 - 00:08:24:17
Kay Sargent
Well, I think there's been I think that there's been some fundamental shifts over the last 40 years and things have started to evolve, but they happen so slowly that people haven't necessarily seen the cumulative effect. And I think if you stop and you really think about that, where we are today and where we are 40 years ago is significantly different in many, many regards.
00:08:24:19 - 00:08:28:13
Kay Sargent
And I think we need to kind of own that right now for sure.
00:08:28:13 - 00:08:52:16
Brad Sousa
So let's talk about this for a moment, because you opened up the topic around the evolution of the office or the purpose of workplace and yeah, and you spend your time helping others imagine how to really make a a amazing place for workers to come back to. I think the definition of workplace has changed. I think the purpose of the office has changed.
00:08:52:18 - 00:09:06:16
Brad Sousa
Let's take a moment and just kind of unpack that together. Let's talk about the workplace, because first, let's talk about that first, because you you often talk about it in terms of an ecosystem. And I think that's an interesting thought that people don't just naturally get.
00:09:06:18 - 00:09:29:18
Kay Sargent
Yeah. So first of all, we started saying literally seven years ago and it's probably never it's true or now than it was then, but we are no longer designing environments, we're designing the experience. And the question is where is that experience happening? And so with our clients, it's not just about, you know, what's happening at the workplace itself.
00:09:29:19 - 00:09:55:16
Kay Sargent
We address a whole myriad of issues and we need to understand that work isn't necessarily just happening at one place, it's happening in this ecosystem. And this ecosystem has organically evolved over time. You know, Brad, you and I spent a ton of time in airports. I mean, we spend more time in an airport working than I do in an office working or in somebody else's office or, you know, in a variety of different settings.
00:09:55:16 - 00:10:21:12
Kay Sargent
And so I think what we need to understand is that there is this emerging ecosystem that we officially can acknowledge now of home, third places, fourth places and the office and and what is the right balance of all of those. And I, I don't think our industry is asking the right questions, and I think that's a problem right now.
00:10:21:14 - 00:10:27:10
Brad Sousa
So what kind of questions do we find ourselves asking and what should we be asking?
00:10:27:12 - 00:10:44:18
Kay Sargent
Yeah, well, and look, I'm going to be an equal opportunity offender, so I apologize in advance. Hearing it. Your first one right there is such a thing as a stupid question, right? I have five children. I get asked them every day. And by the way, now I ask them in return because now I'm the one asking the dumb questions like how do I get to the Apple TV, you know, or whatever.
00:10:44:18 - 00:11:03:01
Kay Sargent
So, you know, there is such a thing as a dumb question. I think a lot of companies asked a dumb question and they asked people what they wanted in the beginning of this. And it's not that. It's not that we don't care what people want. That is that's important. But it's not the only thing. Just because you can work from home doesn't necessarily mean that you should.
00:11:03:03 - 00:11:39:20
Kay Sargent
And I think we need to think about what's right for the business, what's right for the individual, what's right for the coworkers. And one of our clients, some this up really, really well recently where they said they're basically going to their workforce and saying, okay, we need you to think about what do your customers and clients need and where do you need to be to do that, Number one or two, what do your colleagues need from you, the people you supervise, the people you report to, the people that you're learning from or sharing from, What do they need and where do you need to be to do that?
00:11:39:23 - 00:11:58:07
Kay Sargent
And then what do you personally want? And I think right now there's a lot of individuals that are waking up and thinking, I don't want to get dressed and put on pants and drive to an office today. I would just rather stay here. They're not thinking about those other factors and they're not even thinking about what's right for their long term professional career.
00:11:58:09 - 00:12:22:24
Kay Sargent
And I think that's a challenge where we're thinking very so centrally. And I think right now we're very divided in not just in the workplace, but in a whole variety of ways. And that that individualism, that lack of connected to the greater whole, I think is really causing some challenges. It's one of the reasons why what's happening in Europe is a little bit different.
00:12:22:24 - 00:12:28:19
Kay Sargent
And what's happening in Asia is very different than what we're experiencing in the US right now.
00:12:28:23 - 00:12:32:29
Brad Sousa
Let's talk about that for a moment because I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're saying there. So talk about.
00:12:32:29 - 00:12:38:13
Kay Sargent
That. Yeah. So in Asia, you know, they basically are back at the office mostly.
00:12:38:20 - 00:12:39:21
Brad Sousa
Oh yeah, for sure.
00:12:39:28 - 00:13:08:08
Kay Sargent
Yeah. And in a lot of cases it's because, you know, you have you have people that are living in multi generations and smaller living units and you go to the office to actually have some space, right? It's not like in America where a lot of these cities were designed a central business district with bigger houses outside in the suburbs and people have that space and we have longer commutes and they also have different rail systems in different parts of parts of the world.
00:13:08:08 - 00:13:32:15
Kay Sargent
I think in Europe it's much more about the collective mentality and the group mentality. And I think here it's more of that individual entrepreneurial, free spirit. What do I want? What do I think is important? And on one hand, that's fabulous because it's led to amazing innovation, but on the other hand, it's not necessarily thinking about what's good for the collective.
00:13:32:20 - 00:13:58:22
Kay Sargent
And right now, I think most companies are doing a fairly poor job of tying people to something bigger than themselves. And the messaging is, I want you in the office because I want to see you sitting out that desk so I know you're working, right. It's not about, you know what, Brad, When you're in the office, you inspire these younger people and by the way, they help you with all that stuff, you know?
00:13:58:22 - 00:14:07:26
Kay Sargent
But, you know, it's like they don't make it a compelling reason and make us feel like we're part of something more important than just what I personally want.
00:14:07:29 - 00:14:26:23
Brad Sousa
I love that we're going to talk about that a little bit more. Before we do, though, I want to just kind of land this topic that the purpose of the office has changed because I've heard you talk about this. Matter of fact, I have successfully stolen this from you, I guess integrated into many of my keynotes. And then I usually give you credit, but it depends on the.
00:14:26:23 - 00:14:29:27
Kay Sargent
Office, whatever. Just take this run with it.
00:14:29:27 - 00:14:50:05
Brad Sousa
Brad you talked about the office was really kind of the old way. We designed an office was kind of like a leftover from kindergarten. You talk about that and then and then you talk about the fact that people would say, Hey, I'm going to go to work. And what that meant was, I'm going to go to the office because everything I needed was there.
00:14:50:07 - 00:14:50:29
Kay Sargent
Yeah.
00:14:51:02 - 00:14:55:02
Brad Sousa
Talk about talk about the change in the purpose of the office from that mindset.
00:14:55:05 - 00:15:11:13
Kay Sargent
Well, let me just and I'm going to make it broader than just the office. I'm going to talk about it in general. Okay. It really personal. I'm sorry. And this is this is a little dark, but I apologize for that, too. I look 40 years ago, I graduated with a degree that was paid off the day I walked out of school.
00:15:11:16 - 00:15:32:00
Kay Sargent
And I thought I would have one career in one profession. Right. And I thought that would probably last about 30 years. I couldn't really work that much on the weekends because we didn't have Internet or cell phones and all of that. Sure, computers used to a little bit, but not that much. So I was accessible, but to a limit.
00:15:32:02 - 00:15:54:22
Kay Sargent
And I thought that I would be better off by the promise. Not even thought I had the promise of being better off than my parents. This generation is graduating now with a degree that will take them 20 years to pay off. They won't even pay off that degree before they have to go back and get upskilled and retrain something we didn't necessarily assume we had to do.
00:15:54:24 - 00:16:20:22
Kay Sargent
They aren't going to be working for 30 years because we're already working 40 or 50 years unless universal income comes in, they are going to be working 40 or 50 years. They are expected it are accessible 20 47a day. And in many parts, like in Europe, you're starting to see people put limitations on this and they have the prospect of being worse off than their parents.
00:16:20:24 - 00:16:45:20
Kay Sargent
You used to have to go to an office to get work done. You don't have to anymore. And so not only has work has fundamentally shifted from a societal standpoint, from an educational standpoint for duration and an economic standpoint, it has fundamentally shifted. And so is the real issue here that people don't want to go back to their offices because they suck.
00:16:45:22 - 00:17:13:10
Kay Sargent
Or is it? I don't want to waste all the time commuting and if I'm going to be working for 50 years, that's kind of unobtainable. Like, where do I get a break? When do I get some relief? And so I think this pushback that we're seeing right now is that work has become fundamentally unsustainable. It's not that this generation is lazy, it's not that they don't want to work.
00:17:13:12 - 00:17:21:12
Kay Sargent
It's that the prospect that has been laid in front of them is not the same one that was laid in front of us. And it's don't.
00:17:21:14 - 00:17:43:07
Brad Sousa
Wow. So it's over. Well, the concept of working eight or 10 hours a day in an office for 50 years is overwhelming, is your point. And and so therefore, the way that you design a workplace is, is different in my hearing that right.
00:17:43:10 - 00:18:04:18
Kay Sargent
Yeah. Yeah. And let's just let's just factor this in to you know, I grew up in a time I entered the workforce in a time of, you know, my generation where there were some, I would say loyalty, but there was some kind of contract between employer and employees. My father worked for the same place for 30 some years.
00:18:04:18 - 00:18:25:03
Kay Sargent
You know, it was very, very common. And so we thought we're going to we're going to have a few employers, maybe, you know, we might shift a few times. This generation watched their parents get laid off. You know, often later on in their careers, they've watched big swaths of people never be able to get a job when they graduated because of some of the economic situations.
00:18:25:03 - 00:18:50:00
Kay Sargent
And that's not necessarily unique to them. But I think that they don't necessarily have the comfort blanket that some other previous generations had. And so I think they're taking a long, hard look on what am I willing to do and how do I create some boundaries if boundaries aren't going to be there. And again, in Europe, there are lots of boundaries that are being put out there to protect workers.
00:18:50:02 - 00:18:54:17
Kay Sargent
That is not happening in the United States and is unlikely to happen in the US.
00:18:54:19 - 00:19:16:21
Brad Sousa
Yeah, so that's really interesting and and the impact in the impact is this notion of if if I want the best workers to work together, I have to create a place that is endearing to them. I mean, the term you and I use often is creating a workplace worth returning to.
00:19:16:23 - 00:19:18:24
Kay Sargent
Yeah, it's a commute worthy.
00:19:18:27 - 00:19:43:02
Brad Sousa
Yeah. Commute where they exactly. It earns the drive or it earns the flight or whatever the that is to to actually get there. So so a lot of I want to talk about this idea for a moment. How do we create this place that is worth driving to or worth the effort of getting to? And, you know, a start with this idea of a strategy around it?
00:19:43:08 - 00:19:58:26
Brad Sousa
Because I think it's a it's a business strategy. It's not a a construction project. It's actually a business strategy. And it's interesting to me that so many organizations don't have a strategy around this. I mean, are you still saying that or.
00:19:58:28 - 00:20:22:29
Kay Sargent
Yes, we are still saying that. And so so I'll say a few things. Hybrid is more of an operational model than a workplace model. I can design an amazing space if nobody is there. It doesn't matter if you're not putting in place access to leaders and the services and the amenities and and the things that people want, it doesn't matter.
00:20:23:01 - 00:20:44:10
Kay Sargent
And so we actually have a list of here are the 12 things you need to do to have a successful hybrid policy. Only five of them have to do with physical space. The other 12 are things like retrain managers to be able to manage by performance and not presence. Brilliant. Right. So think about how you're onboarding individuals to make them, you know, to make it stick.
00:20:44:13 - 00:21:03:28
Kay Sargent
And I think a lot of our clients right now are trying to think about, well, I'm going to say we're being set up for failure. They're coming to us and saying, I need you to design a space that is so amazing that everybody will want to show up. And again, I can design an amazing space, but if you don't have the policies and procedures in place, it doesn't matter.
00:21:04:01 - 00:21:36:08
Kay Sargent
And one of the things that clients are asking us is what does that amenity that's going to make everybody come in? I'm going to tell you what it isn't. Donuts, coffee. Maybe you could argue it might be coffee, but but donuts and fries like and those are all nice things, but that's sure to do it. And so we actually believe and I'm going to amend this because initially we said the number one amenity is people, yeah, if I'm going to an office and it's invigorating and lively and there are people there and that's why I'm going and I see them and I can engage, that's great.
00:21:36:08 - 00:21:59:20
Kay Sargent
If I go, well, I'm the only one there. I'm not staying, but I'm going to amend it to the number one amenities access to leadership. If we're telling people that you need to come in for mentoring for professional development, this generation wants to make an impact. They want to have access to those people. And so if I'm telling you, you need to come in, but then I'm not there, what is that saying?
00:21:59:22 - 00:22:21:07
Kay Sargent
And so we're telling our clients, you need to rethink how you're designing spaces, because what are people coming in for? Are they coming in to gather? Are they coming in to connect with their employees? Are they coming in to do, you know, some some level of heads down, concentrate of work, you know, whatever that is? We have to figure that out and designed for that.
00:22:21:12 - 00:22:25:15
Kay Sargent
I'm not coming in to sit in a little teeny box, I'll tell you that. Yeah.
00:22:25:17 - 00:22:27:25
Brad Sousa
Yeah.
00:22:27:27 - 00:23:03:08
Kay Sargent
But then we also need to make sure that we have all of those other things in place that are making it a great space to be. You have to give me something that the office that I cannot get at home, whether that's movement, access to individuals, amenity services, training, amazing technology, you know, whatever that is, the energy, the buzz, the connection to the culture, the sense that I belong to something more important than myself are all really positive things, and we need to connect with that.
00:23:03:10 - 00:23:26:14
Brad Sousa
So. So imagine I'm not looking for a name of a customer. I just know the good work that you do. Yeah, I want you to lock one or two of those in your head or customers that have gone on this journey with you. Paint a word picture of what what it looks like when you have a good strategy.
00:23:26:16 - 00:23:27:21
Brad Sousa
What does that look like?
00:23:27:23 - 00:23:47:06
Kay Sargent
Yeah, so it all starts with that strategy is clearly and consistently communicated that you don't have one group doing one thing, another group doing something totally different. And then you start getting like, Well, why can they do this and we can't do that, etc.. It's also about having things that are fit for purpose.
00:23:47:08 - 00:23:50:22
Brad Sousa
You talk about that, talk about that some more because I'm not sure people get that yet.
00:23:50:22 - 00:24:06:15
Kay Sargent
So, look, a lot of our clients are saying, well, the only reason anybody's going back to the office is together. Okay. That's that's one of the reasons. It's not the only reason. And so a lot of our clients are saying, okay, get rid of some of these desk and let's just plop in gathering spaces right in the middle of that so that they can connect.
00:24:06:17 - 00:24:35:08
Kay Sargent
But if you're not if if your managers don't encourage you to use those spaces, if being seen in those spaces is signaling to someone that you're not really working, you're messing around if they're not in the right location or if that's not what you do, like if you're doing individual work and you're doing, you know, paperwork or whatever, and I'm not gathering or connecting or sharing, you know, all of that, having those kinds of spaces does not fit my purpose.
00:24:35:08 - 00:24:56:29
Kay Sargent
Right. And so we need to really understand what are your people doing, what are their work styles, what are they doing, Where best can they do that and what are the best types of spaces that will support them and their abilities to do that? What you need for salespeople is different than accountants. What you need for lawyers is different than you need for tech entrepreneurs.
00:24:56:29 - 00:25:00:28
Kay Sargent
And we need to understand.
00:25:01:00 - 00:25:21:22
Brad Sousa
So you often describe this in terms of neighborhoods or activity based work. It's this notion that I don't sit at my desk all day long. I actually used different parts of where I work for different tasks. Yeah. Can you can you explain that a little bit with that?
00:25:21:24 - 00:25:46:21
Kay Sargent
So I want to use an analogy. Yeah. When everybody is assigned a work spot, every desk has to be exactly the same. And people's mobility level drops because a second you put your name on something, then it's almost like you've tethered me to that spot. And we're not addressing diversity and equity because again, we're assuming one size fits all and we know that's not the case.
00:25:46:22 - 00:25:47:09
Brad Sousa
Wow.
00:25:47:11 - 00:26:17:05
Kay Sargent
And then, you know, we we kind of force people into a set behavior. If we can create options and choices and variety, then people can migrate to the types of spaces that they need. So I want you to think about that. Assigned spaces is the equivalent of a one room efficiency apartment. That workstation initially was designed, or I could sit in one place and reach everything, and everything was right there and I never have to move.
00:26:17:05 - 00:26:41:03
Kay Sargent
Isn't that incredible? No. That's one step away from Wally, right? That's not what we should be trying to do. We want people to be active and engaged and moving, and so we're taking people out of that one room efficiency apartment. And I'm moving you into a single family home where if you're going to cook, you cook in the kitchen, if you're sleeping, you're sleeping in the bedroom, if you're working, there might be a den or a space to do that.
00:26:41:03 - 00:27:01:23
Kay Sargent
You're not sitting there at the end of your bed. That's also your desk. That's also your kitchen table, like a one room efficiency apartment. Right. And so we're not taking things away from people who are actually giving you more options and choices and treating you like an adult so that you can make the choice about what do I have to get done today and what's the right place for me to do that.
00:27:01:25 - 00:27:26:20
Brad Sousa
Are our our way of explaining this. What you're describing our language is we use this phrase called human impact. And it's this notion that tech in and of itself is not good enough. It's it has to do it has to level up the consumer of it, the user of it. And what you're doing is you're talking about designing a space that's not just rows and rows of cubicles.
00:27:26:20 - 00:27:42:12
Brad Sousa
You're designing a space because that's how the people in that space a want to consume it, but be deliver better. They work better, they create a sense of community better.
00:27:42:14 - 00:27:56:11
Kay Sargent
All right. I'm going to flip the tables on you, but I'm going to ask you. All right. And we'll give you a theory kind of and what we're seeing. And I just want to see if if you're seeing that. So we have this whole thing that we call high tech equals high touch.
00:27:56:13 - 00:27:57:07
Brad Sousa
Okay. Sure.
00:27:57:08 - 00:28:22:20
Kay Sargent
The more high tech we go, the more high touch people want their spaces because they need balance. So our philosophy is, if you think about sci fi movies, most sci fi movies, the futuristic workplace is very cold and sterile and metallic and, you know, dark and monochrome static and lots of screens and like whatever. But we're humans and we need to feel like we connect.
00:28:22:22 - 00:28:45:07
Kay Sargent
And so the more technology is impacting and influencing us, which is can be a great thing, the more authentic and real and hands on we want things, the more biophilic elements are coming in, the more stylization is coming in, the more hospitality elements are coming into workplaces because we are human. And when you think about what separates us from the machines, the machines, we're doing those analytical, robotic things.
00:28:45:09 - 00:29:09:17
Kay Sargent
We're doing those emotional intelligence that the human things, that the judgment elements. And so we believe that those sci fi movies are getting it totally wrong. And there's a massive movement, even for places that are high touch, high tech, to really start to create spaces that are more human centric and aren't sterile.
00:29:09:19 - 00:29:40:03
Brad Sousa
Yeah, for sure. So, so our our language around this is the days of adopting tech has gone. It's not about adopting tech, it's about adaptive tech because adopting tech says and I'm moving you towards the technology, but adaptive tech says that I'm moving the tech towards you and it's beginning to understand how you want to use it, how you how you use it to better your work or how you use it to create a better experience.
00:29:40:10 - 00:30:04:22
Brad Sousa
It's really adapting to you. And so for me, I agree with you the sci fi notion of this, you know, super sterile environment, it doesn't work because people ultimately want, especially younger workers, want that tech to adapt to them, and they don't even want to think about how to use it. They want it to somehow magically do what they want it to do.
00:30:04:24 - 00:30:08:07
Kay Sargent
Well, and look, we call it we talk about digital fitness, right? You know. Yeah.
00:30:08:08 - 00:30:09:12
Brad Sousa
Perfect example.
00:30:09:15 - 00:30:31:08
Kay Sargent
Right? And and I say all the time, you know, I'm sorry to say this, but, you know, look, a 16 year old can drive a Porsche. I'm not giving a 16 year old a course. All right. For for many reasons. Okay. Right. But I think there's been a tradition maybe in the IT industry to give people the coolest, most, you know, crazy thing.
00:30:31:10 - 00:30:51:14
Kay Sargent
And literally, I can't tell you how many conference rooms I've walked into where there's a $50,000 piece of technology art on the wall that nobody knows how to use because it didn't match the digital fitness of the users. And I think that's right. I think one of the conundrums right now that people are are facing and I would love your insight on this one, too.
00:30:51:17 - 00:31:17:16
Kay Sargent
On one hand, everybody wants things intuitive. I want to be able to walk into the room, not have to take 10 minutes to get it set up and just have it work. Like I just want it to work, but then to to make that and they want a consistent experience. So a lot of in-house i.t guys are saying every conference room needs to have the same package so that it doesn't vary so that it's user friendly and it's intuitive.
00:31:17:16 - 00:31:33:24
Kay Sargent
But then to me, okay, I get that part of it, but then that also means that you're dumbing down everything to the lowest level of digital fitness and you're not getting anybody like you're putting things in a room that may not need it. And then you have a room that really could use something more sophisticated and they're not getting it.
00:31:34:01 - 00:31:38:03
Kay Sargent
So it's kind of like that average, which is just like.
00:31:38:05 - 00:32:10:23
Brad Sousa
Yeah, the the uniformity argument is actually much more valued by the I.T staff that has to support thousands of these across their enterprise. I think uniformity translates into comfort for the user, but it's not a mandate ability to use as the mandate, the ability to enable that technology to level me up is the mandate, not not uniformity. So so I want to go back to something you said because I don't want to blow past this.
00:32:10:23 - 00:32:33:17
Brad Sousa
So you were talking about it's still in this context of how you design something for the the fit for purpose kind of mindset. And you and I have had you talked about by affiliates, you talked about a number of different attributes. I want to I want to camp for a moment on neurodiversity because this is a topic that's passionate for you, passionate for me.
00:32:33:19 - 00:32:49:20
Brad Sousa
And it's this notion of of delivering a space or an experience that is adaptive to that particular person. Talk about neurodiversity, how it impacts the way you design.
00:32:49:26 - 00:33:15:29
Kay Sargent
Yeah. So, so here's what and we've actually kind of broadened this topic a little bit more so so today, in a sense, we often we can talk about neurodiversity, but it's not just people that are neurodiverse, meaning people that maybe be ADHD on the spectrum for autism, etc.. Every single person, whether you're neurodiverse or neurotypical, is being literally assaulted by sensory stimulation.
00:33:16:01 - 00:33:41:29
Kay Sargent
And and you don't have to be on the extreme ends to be impacted by sound or visual distractions or temperature, any of those things. And so when we design for the extreme, we tend to benefit the mean. But we need to acknowledge that cognitive and social well or sensory well-being are really critical elements. And we need to design spaces where people can function.
00:33:41:29 - 00:34:13:00
Kay Sargent
If I ask designers, what are the top three things that you get are post occupancy evaluations that are the three biggest issues. It's acoustics, lighting and temperature. All three are sensory elements. And so we've done a tremendous amount of research into really understanding how space is impacting you and or you can create an ecosystem. There's your favorite word again, and I just had to get that in again.
00:34:13:02 - 00:34:42:16
Kay Sargent
You can create an ecosystem within offices that give people options and choices so that if you are hypersensitive and you need more stimulation. But I'm hyper sensitive and I'm being overwhelmed with visual or acoustical stimulation, we both confined spaces that fit our needs for that task at hand. And so again, it goes back to options, choices and variety.
00:34:42:18 - 00:34:48:01
Kay Sargent
And it really helps everybody function at a higher level in those shared spaces.
00:34:48:03 - 00:35:18:03
Brad Sousa
So I want to I want to I want to take this a little bit more personal. So as I've gotten to know you, there's really lots of things to love about you. But you you are super passionate about this idea of designing for people, not designing for a standard or a SPAC or how did that get started? What started that for you?
00:35:18:05 - 00:35:44:26
Kay Sargent
Well, I mean, I think first of all, as a designer, I truly believe that every space that we make design has an impact on the individuals. And and over the years, I've seen how it's impacted people. And I really got into workplace strategy. I'll tell you something, I don't tell those people. I really got into that several years ago, probably 20 years ago, because clients wouldn't make decisions.
00:35:44:28 - 00:36:07:06
Kay Sargent
And it's like this is, you know, here's what we were thinking. This is what you should do. And if we couldn't justify why we were making the recommendation, it was just our opinion versus theirs. Right. And I will argue today and again, equal opportunity offender in a corporate setting. You are not designing me to design something that you personally like.
00:36:07:13 - 00:36:26:08
Kay Sargent
You have a house, go do whatever you want that you like at your house. You are. I am being hired to create a space that works for your population, for the mission of your organization, for your brand, for your culture, for your customers. Okay. And so I need to understand what is it that you're trying to achieve? Are you trying to achieve spaces that people will never want to leave?
00:36:26:08 - 00:36:55:24
Kay Sargent
Are you are you trying to achieve spaces that people will come in, be wowed and leave within 10 minutes? Right. Because they've got to go on to the next set and every decision that we make, I can argue why we made that decision and how it's impacting the the behavior that we want. But if I say that every decision I make can have a positive impact on the individuals, I also have to acknowledge that if I don't design it well, it's right negative.
00:36:55:28 - 00:36:57:08
Brad Sousa
I say absolutely right.
00:36:57:10 - 00:37:33:04
Kay Sargent
And nobody went to design school so we could stick it to a bunch of people. Right? We all went to design school because we are passionate about that. And so really understanding the full power and the science of design because there is one and we don't talk about that a lot is really critical in helping our clients make better decisions faster and create spaces where more and more people are welcome, feel included, can be highly functional and it's accessible for both the individual and for the for the business.
00:37:33:07 - 00:38:03:15
Brad Sousa
So I believe that this is true. By the way, I have these same conversations with my team, and we're not talking necessarily about spaces. We might be talking about a UI or we might be talking about a soundscape, or we might be talking about an experience. Ultimately, everything comes down to an experience because the experience is the emotional connective tissue between, in our case, the tech and the person.
00:38:03:17 - 00:38:15:04
Brad Sousa
And and what you're talking about in design transfers into any kind of design. And if you're not doing it, I think you're missing the boat. That's why I love these conversations.
00:38:15:04 - 00:38:26:12
Kay Sargent
With you and Brad. We're tied at the hip, okay, Because I can design the most amazing place on the planet. But if somebody goes into it and the tech doesn't work, they're not talking about how beautiful that room is. They're talking about why isn't the tech working?
00:38:26:14 - 00:38:27:12
Brad Sousa
That's right.
00:38:27:15 - 00:38:58:06
Kay Sargent
And if I design a space that I and I don't bring you in early enough to make sure that it's highly functional, we're going to miss. And. Right. You know, I think the message that we are telling everybody in our firm and have been is if you are designing workspaces, gathering spaces, specifically gathering spaces and meeting choices and offices, the same way that you did three, four or five years ago, you're missing the boat because we have got to rethink the way that we design things.
00:38:58:13 - 00:39:21:20
Kay Sargent
And I'll just the perfect example, I think we have done a very poor job of designing gathering spaces, and if people are coming back to meet those meaning spaces better be good and they better be fit for purpose. It is. It should not be about shoving the largest rectangular table with a maximum number of chairs I can in a room with a little teeny monitor at the end of one wall glass on one side, windows on the other.
00:39:21:20 - 00:39:39:14
Kay Sargent
No place to hang, any place note, nowhere to stand or move or fidget and calling that a good experience. And then, by the way, adding the tech at the end and the room isn't proportionally set up so that anybody can see it. We have we have we've got to stop and say, what are you doing in that room?
00:39:39:16 - 00:39:53:25
Kay Sargent
And let us help you design differently. Because the old adages of, okay, conference rooms, 20 or 25 square feet per person, put it in the program, call it a day that doesn't cut it. It more, it does it. And we have to change that.
00:39:53:27 - 00:40:04:17
Brad Sousa
So I'm going to take us to a conversation that you and I had at lunch a few months ago. You know what conference, if you know in your future, as you might remember it.
00:40:04:18 - 00:40:11:08
Kay Sargent
Well, I'm scared because we've had so many, like, honest conversations. It's like, which one are you going to bring out now? But okay. All right.
00:40:11:10 - 00:40:12:05
Brad Sousa
You and I are having.
00:40:12:05 - 00:40:12:28
Kay Sargent
Lunch.
00:40:13:01 - 00:40:32:14
Brad Sousa
And you leave. This goes to the to the topic of, you know, good strategies help people make good decisions. And this goes to, you know, why are you doing what you're doing? You and I are having lunch and you lean over the table and you look at me and you go, I don't get you guys. And what you meant by that was I don't get you, you geeks.
00:40:32:14 - 00:40:33:23
Brad Sousa
I get you guys.
00:40:33:25 - 00:40:38:24
Kay Sargent
Now you speak a different language and nobody knows what you guys are talking about. 90% of the time.
00:40:38:27 - 00:40:46:00
Brad Sousa
What is it? What is it you don't get? And you looked at me and you said you keep asking your customer what they want. Like they know.
00:40:46:00 - 00:40:46:08
Kay Sargent
What they.
00:40:46:08 - 00:40:48:10
Brad Sousa
Want. They don't know what they.
00:40:48:10 - 00:40:49:13
Kay Sargent
Want you to help them.
00:40:49:13 - 00:41:02:19
Brad Sousa
Figure out what they want. Stop doing that. And they tell you, okay, I repeat that story as often as I can, but this is what you're talking about. It's how you lead a customer to an outcome, right?
00:41:02:21 - 00:41:22:11
Kay Sargent
Yeah. And look, I think this is something that is fundamentally changed. Five years ago. Maybe you could ask a customer what they wanted, but sure, that the whole world has been flipped up so that we don't we don't, you know, look, in a traditional design scenario, you start with visioning and then, you know, programing, etc.. All right. And you know it.
00:41:22:14 - 00:41:39:23
Kay Sargent
They're hiring us because we do this 100 times a day. We know what it is. But the very first question we ask them is, Hey, what do you want? Like, what should I do for you? I'd be like, I really am. You tell me what I should even be considering and what I should be thinking about. Right? Then I'll tell you what's relevant to me.
00:41:39:23 - 00:42:07:03
Kay Sargent
So we've we totally changed the way we engage our customers, and we call it framing the possible, and it's helping them understand where they even are and then where they could potentially get to. Then we can map a course. If you're asking somebody who's never walked outside where they want to go, they don't know and they don't even know where they are anymore because he entire world has been flipped upside out.
00:42:07:03 - 00:42:36:19
Kay Sargent
So we have to approach our our customers differently and we have to think about here's what is happening, here's what we're seeing, here's the impact that's happening, here's how we think that influences are going to impact you. Here are the things that you need to be thinking about. I mean, five or six years ago, there weren't a lot of companies that were thinking about ESG diversity, equity and inclusion, neurodiversity, doing gathering spaces differently, hybrid working ecosystems.
00:42:36:21 - 00:43:02:27
Kay Sargent
These are all things that existed to some degree, and we were doing it with some of our clients, but not to the level that doing it now. And now let's throw in artificial intelligence and chat, chit chat chip and and all of that as well. So I think our job is to help our clients understand the dynamics at play and help them prepare for what's happening.
00:43:02:29 - 00:43:31:26
Brad Sousa
Yeah, super good. Okay, so one more provocateur. We have time for one more provocative question here, and that is there's this point of tension. We've talked about it, but we haven't actually like or said it right. So there's this tension between workers who are trying to define the work style in the work environment that they want, which often includes the office, not always, but often includes the office.
00:43:31:28 - 00:43:59:12
Brad Sousa
And then there's executive teams for management who need what people back into the office for a variety of reasons. But those two views are polarizing to some degree, and sometimes you get a mandate if you don't get to the office by this day for this amount of time every week, you need to go look for another job someplace else or it's the opposite, which is kind of passive aggressive.
00:43:59:14 - 00:44:08:29
Brad Sousa
Can I bribe you? Maybe this kind of donut is a better version of what will get you into the office, right? Well, where do you think this lands? Where is it today? And where do you think this lands?
00:44:09:03 - 00:44:31:25
Kay Sargent
Well, let's. Okay, so I think we're in this situation because people aren't being honest for a fairer variety of reasons. Number one, I don't think and you can see survey results and people will say the craziest things and it's like, really, wow, number one. And I don't think and I don't think people are lying 10th. I don't think they really understand all of the dynamics at play.
00:44:31:25 - 00:44:58:00
Kay Sargent
But there's this there's this intuition. Of course, what we're hearing in the roundtables that we are having from business leaders is that they are very concerned about continuity, about about people. You know, churn is happening. They're concerned about the high rate of depression and burnout that is happening. They're concerned about the quality of what is being produced. People are sitting stagnant for hours and hours.
00:44:58:02 - 00:45:25:04
Kay Sargent
They feel like they're working hard. They're draining themselves physically, just having the life sucked out of them. But sitting on Zoom calls for 8 hours a day, is that really what a company values? And most people are multitasking. The number of mistakes has gone through the roof, you know, So, I mean, there's a lot of really good reasons, but, you know, a lot of people in corporate America don't want to say, hey, we're our quality is really dropped.
00:45:25:11 - 00:45:52:21
Kay Sargent
We need to get you guys back into the office. And by the way, I want to retire someday. So you need to get here so I can actually, like, you know, transfer this knowledge. And I'm right. But on the same hand, workers, I think, are very empowered and they haven't had a lot of options and choices. And again, let's go back to that first conversation that we had about what is facing them today and the fact that it's daunting.
00:45:52:24 - 00:46:22:07
Kay Sargent
And I think a lot of people want a little bit more balance and a little bit more control because we have to figure out a way that we can work in a sustainable way. And there needs to be a reason and a logic. Again, you know, telling people they have to be in the office just because you them to be and telling, you know, somebody saying, I never want to come back without thinking about what your job requirements are or what that does for the company or for your coworkers is also not thing.
00:46:22:08 - 00:46:48:07
Kay Sargent
So we have to be honest and we also need to be fair to each other and we need to think about the entire system workers and the company and how do we come to a solution that will benefit most. I do believe that some degree of hybrid work is here. I think people are going to very quickly realize that hybrid work is the hardest model to pull off, and in many cases it's going to be the worst of both.
00:46:48:10 - 00:47:06:08
Kay Sargent
I think it's going to be rough and rocky until people realize that they need to do something differently and we need to fundamentally work differently. Sitting stagnant on Zoom calls for 8 hours a day, Whether you're in the officer at home is not ideal for anybody.
00:47:06:10 - 00:47:32:20
Brad Sousa
Yeah, yeah. So good. So when you look in your crystal ball and you're looking down the road, you know, whatever it is, your crystal ball is probably further out than my crystal ball. What do you think about what are the one or two things that you pay attention to that have the potential of really advancing this field of workplace design?
00:47:32:22 - 00:47:56:07
Kay Sargent
I think we need to think differently in many regards. I think we need to totally rethink gathering spaces and not only where they are or like how we design them, but where they are. You know, you can get any high rise building in New York City and there's probably, you know, 50 floors. There's probably at least 30 tricked out conference rooms that are used an hour a day or a day, a week at most.
00:47:56:07 - 00:48:15:08
Kay Sargent
That's a total waste, right. We need to think about how do we leverage the sharing economy and create maybe less space, but it's better space and it's and maybe it's a managed conference center or whatever. So so we get rid of some of those challenges that you and I were just talking about. And maybe not everybody has to own it.
00:48:15:11 - 00:48:35:02
Kay Sargent
We're we've always been very siloed. You know, I have to have all my own things. You have to have your own thing. We all like are in this same space. I have no idea who works above me or below me. We don't share anything, you know, it's kind of a waste and regard. And so I think in a lot of cases we're thinking about creating more communal spaces and sharing opportunities.
00:48:35:04 - 00:49:02:26
Kay Sargent
We have got to get serious about sustainability. It is a huge issue. We have got to get serious about repurposing an aging infrastructure building. I saw a statistic the other day that in the United States about 70% of buildings are really set for what is coming, but globally about 90% of global portfolio is not where it needs to be, and nobody wants to invest in buildings right now.
00:49:02:26 - 00:49:27:10
Kay Sargent
So if we're not investing in buildings, but those buildings aren't up to standards, we've got a real serious issue because there is a massive flight to quality right now and people want better spaces. So we have to think about how do we do this and we need to think about how do we create, you know, whether it's the 15 minute city or the, you know, walking cities or, you know, how how do we do that?
00:49:27:10 - 00:49:58:00
Kay Sargent
So I think there's a lot of interesting things that we have an opportunity to rethink. And, you know, I think we need to rethink how people are working. And if I'm going to be working for 50 years, I can't wait 50 years for that retirement. I mean, there are things in my life, whether it's travel or having children or going back and getting educated, whether it's a sabbatical system, whether it's periodic breaks, whether it's something we need to make it so that people can actually sustain and it's more palatable.
00:49:58:03 - 00:50:21:27
Kay Sargent
And then, you know, I think if you think about athletes, athletes train in spurts and then you take a break and then you train in spurts. We need to work more like athletes. And I think this notion that, you know, 8 hours a day I think is going to go I think I end it fascinating that I tend to work lot work.
00:50:21:29 - 00:50:42:22
Kay Sargent
But there are lots of times where it's like, all right, I hear it is 3:00 in the afternoon. I have calls until 630 or seven. I can either sit here and then not get then sit in traffic and not get home until 830 or nine. Or I could leave now, miss the traffic, take my calls from home, which I'm trying to avoid bothering people in the office anyway.
00:50:42:23 - 00:50:51:28
Kay Sargent
And then I'm home in time for dinner because I've already done that, you know. So I we need to think about things a little bit more fluidly as well.
00:50:52:00 - 00:51:13:02
Brad Sousa
Okay. What if if there is somebody listening that's an aspiring designer, maybe they're maybe they're a tech designer, then they might look like me or they're a space designer and they might look like you. But what would you say to them? One thing that you would say to them that would level up their game as a designer?
00:51:13:04 - 00:51:32:00
Kay Sargent
Look, I think actually it's funny. A lot of the problems that we're facing right now have actually been solved someplace else. Okay. So the auto industry is kicking our. But right now you can get in a car that is all tricked out. It's totally intuitive to what you need, what you want, adjust to you personally and in offices.
00:51:32:00 - 00:51:48:21
Kay Sargent
We're still crawling around trying to find an outlet, you know, or this whole thing about permission signaling, right? You know? Well, how do I know if anybody wants to interrupt me? We figure that out in restaurants and bars. Like we know how to do that. Like, if I'm at a high top table in the middle, people are going to you know, I'm telling people, come talk to me.
00:51:48:26 - 00:52:14:15
Kay Sargent
If I'm in a booth in the back, I'm saying, stay away from me. I'm having a private conversation so we can put that stuff. We've figured it out other places. We just need to be a little bit bolder and braver. And I think in North America we need to rethink the model because I believe we've fallen behind in North America because we have some of the longest lease terms and we build out more extensively than we do in other parts of the world.
00:52:14:15 - 00:52:31:24
Kay Sargent
And so the mantra has always been, we're going to do this once every ten years. We're going to spend a lot of money, don't screw it up. And so people tend to be more conservative. We're in other parts of the world where they're flipping their real estate every three or four years. They try things because we're going to be gone in three years anyway or we're going to get rid of this, etc..
00:52:32:02 - 00:52:51:29
Kay Sargent
And so I think we need to embrace the fact that change is going to be constant. We need to pilot, we need to be a little bit bold and we need to think a little bit differently about how we deliver spaces, how we design spaces, how we approach our clients, what it is that we're offering and what it is.
00:52:51:29 - 00:53:01:24
Kay Sargent
And I'm going to go back to what I said, Brad, you and I are no longer in the business of designing environments. We are designing experiences.
00:53:01:26 - 00:53:16:00
Brad Sousa
Kay Sargent. You're always amazing. I love it every time we get together. It's a pleasure to hang out with you. We just spent an hour talking about the things that we love and man, I can't say thank you enough. Thank you for joining us today.
00:53:16:00 - 00:53:19:07
Kay Sargent
No, I'm happy to. Next time, we'll support peace. Okay.
00:53:19:09 - 00:53:20:04
Brad Sousa
There you go.
